The Science of Raising Humans in the Age of AI | Dana Suskind, MD

[Kris Perry]: Welcome to Screen Deep, where we decode young brains and behavior in a digital world. I’m your host, Kris Perry, Executive Director of Children and Screens. Children today are growing up in a world where artificial intelligence is becoming a part of everyday life. AI can answer questions, tell stories, help with learning, and some even say provide companionship. But many parents are asking an important question: “What role should AI play in my child’s life, and where should the limits be?” What happens when AI begins to take on roles traditionally filled by parents, caregivers, teachers, and friends?

Today’s guest has spent her career studying one of the most important facets to a healthy childhood – human connection.  Dr. Dana Suskind is a pediatric surgeon, Founder and Co-Director of the Thirty Million Words (TMW) Center for Early Learning and Public Health, Founding Director of the Pediatric Cochlear Implant Program, and Professor of Surgery, Pediatrics, and Public Policy at the University of Chicago. Her groundbreaking work on early language development helped transform public understanding of how everyday interactions between children and caregivers shape the developing brain. More recently, she’s turned her expertise to the growing role of AI in family life and its implications for children’s learning and development. In her new book, Human Raised: Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, and Lifelong Learning in the Age of AI, Dr. Suskind explores what AI can and cannot replace, why early childhood relationships matter so much, and how parents can ensure the quality of human experiences that their children need to thrive. Welcome, Dana.

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.

[Kris Perry]: It really is such a pleasure to welcome you to Screen Deep and to share your expertise with our listeners. I’m especially delighted to record this episode as we’ve worked in parallel universes for decades, which has led to a wonderful personal and professional connection.

So let’s dive right in. Your new book about AI and parenting, Human Raised, couldn’t be more timely, and I’m excited to dig into the insights from the book. But first, you’ve had an incredible journey in your career, from focusing on pediatric surgery to early childhood language development and now AI. What was the path that took you from there to here?

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: You know, it is – at one point you look at it and you’re like, “Wow, this has been a crazy path,” but really, when you look at it in another way, it all really connects, and it really is connected by the power of human connection. I always joke that everything that I learned about the brain actually started in the operating room. I’m a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon, and when I began conducting cochlear implants, or started doing cochlear implants, and built the cochlear implant team at the University of Chicago, I quickly realized that the important variable wasn’t just the implant, wasn’t just the surgery, but really what happened after surgery. So I could implant two children who had identical technologies, identical surgeries, but wildly different outcomes. One would flourish linguistically while the other would struggle.

And it often wasn’t the technology that made the difference, it was the language environment in the home that they were born into. Whether the adults were home, talking, singing, reading or, you know, being pulled into three different jobs and not being able to be present. It was never a difference in love of parents, but rather, whether parents had the time and opportunity to support the interaction.

But importantly, seeing the difference in the outcomes of my patients led me on a journey with two questions I became obsessed with. Why was I seeing this difference, and more importantly, what could I do about it? And I went into this incredible world of developmental neuroscience where I found that the power of human connection – the language and interaction in the early years – is really what builds children’s brains, not just for language and literacy, but social development, the ability to, you know, interact, relationships.

And so that was, you know, how I got into this world. And much of the work, you know, at the TMW Center has been focused on lifting barriers for parents, whether it be through education, advocating for important policies. But then, now with the advent of AI – well, initially screens, and then AI – we have technology that not only distracts from that important interaction, but tries to replicate it. This new technology can replicate the human interaction that builds a child’s brain and shapes its architecture. So for me, that was like, “Okay, we need to step back and really understand what we’re exposing our children to and what are the guidelines and sort of frameworks that parents can use to navigate this new moment in time?” And that’s really why I wrote Human Raised and why I’m thinking about AI.

[Kris Perry]: You and other advocates for early childhood language development have talked a lot about the importance of back-and-forth, serve-and-return verbal interactions as the foundation for early language development. At the beginning of your new book, you point out how so many of our public and private spaces have become essentially silent as people in waiting rooms or in line at a coffee shop or hanging out in their living rooms are all looking down at their devices. Before we get into the AI part of it all, is this new silence in our environments impacting child language development?

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: In a word, yes. I want to start off with something that I started off in the book, which was Rachel Carson’s book, Silent Spring. In her groundbreaking book, which really, you know, sparked the environmental movement, she talked about the birds that no longer sang. But that wasn’t the tragedy – they were the signal, the warning that something essential was dying. And in some ways I’m seeing a similar kind of silence in the way you’re describing it. The way you know – I’m a pediatric physician, and the waiting rooms that I used to walk into were this beautiful mess. You know, kids laughing, crying, you know, on the floor crawling, and parents actively engaged or, you know, sort of checked out. But nonetheless, it was the beautiful noise of back-and-forth that literally builds children’s brains. 

But now, I walk into these same spaces, and it’s eerily quiet. And, you know, it’s because everybody from the parents, grandparents, kids, infants are on the technology. And it’s literally, I think, a signal of what we’re losing. And what we’re losing, not just as humans, because we are such social creatures, but our children. I mean, it is literally that back-and-forth interaction – that I’ve dedicated my life to – is being lost, and the impacts are going to be, and are on, our children’s development. So, you know, when we lose that interaction, we’re losing a part of ourselves.

[Kris Perry]: Well, I love that you’re a cochlear implant surgeon and you’re concerned about language development from a – sort of a hearing point of view, but there’s also the visual cues that kids pick up on when their parents are interacting with them. And so it’s so many things and it’s the way that they smell, and it’s the way that they’re maybe holding them or picking them up. There’s so much involved in that serve-and-return with young children, in addition to hearing them.

One comment in your book that’s sticking with me is that the assumption of children being human-raised won’t last long. I mean, this is a powerful thought and somewhat frightening. How is AI being used to raise children now, and what is being lost by doing so?

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: When you think about – in the area of food, right? A hundred plus years ago, you’d never question, “Oh, this food on the table. Was it farm-raised? Is it organic?” You know, fast forward a hundred plus years, and now, you know, you don’t know. Was the food made in a lab? Was it grown on the farm? You have to label things as organic or farm-raised. And as I sort of reflected how AI is sort of quietly, gradually coming into our lives, I realized that, you know, it may not be a safe assumption to say, “Look, children are being purely human-raised,” though I think it’s really important.

AI is entering our children’s lives in many ways. You know, on one end, there are tools that actually support parents. You know, things like meal planners, scheduling assistants, tools that really help navigate and lighten the load. And those are tools that I think allow greater presence of parents, you know, children to be more human-raised. 

On the other end of the spectrum are those AI companions, chatbots, plush toys that are marketed to help stimulate your child’s curiosity and as a benefit to screen time, those are what are more concerning. And at some level, it will encroach into our lives quietly, you know, on screen time with the AI slop that’s being delivered to children from YouTube “educational content,” and I put quotes around it.

So it will enter our lives and children’s lives in many different ways, you know. And what’s most concerning is not just “we don’t know how these tools impact children’s development,” but that they displace human interaction. And that’s what’s most concerning. That’s the silence that we’re seeing. So it will come into our lives in many different ways, and in some ways, the book is about raising the alarm that we need to be thoughtful and intentional about what we let into our children’s lives.

[Kris Perry]: I recently saw a new device that children can use that, if they swipe it across a book, that will read to them. Oh, how great! Now no one else has to read to them. And I thought, “This is so not great.” And it seems innocuous, as you say. Like these things, they pop up on your phone. It’s a new app, it’s a new feature of a search engine, or a new feature of your smartphone. But in fact, it sort of starts to slowly displace that human interaction, and it’s really, really hard to detect sometimes. 

If language development is centered around personal verbal interactions, what happens to language in the AI-centric environment? Does social AI perform the same as a caregiver? Must words come from a human to help language development?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: Yeah, that’s a really important question. And you know, even responding to what you just said, it’s not that any one tool is like, you know, catastrophic. It’s the slippery slope that often happens where, you know, in the same way as ultra-processed foods, you know,  a Dorito here and there – which I love to eat every once in a while – is okay. It’s when it displaces all the really nutrient-rich food. 

And going back to your question, I think one of the most important scientific questions in the book is exactly that, and the answer is clarifying in some ways. I like to bring up Patricia Kuhl, just an incredible researcher who’s done foundational work really showing how infants are born with what we call “the social gate.” And I think I’d really love your listeners to understand it, because the social gate is a biologic filter that babies have that allows them to learn only from responsive, contingent, human interaction. And she showed this beautifully in her research, testing whether babies could learn sounds from Mandarin-speaking tutors. When the tutor was a live human, the babies learned. When it was a video of the exact same tutor, they learned nothing. You know, one-directional screens couldn’t open the gate. And that’s why little kids don’t learn from, you know, Baby Einstein or YouTube videos. 

But, and this is the big but, AI has acquired the keys to that social gate. The, you know, interaction that pulls in people with AI companions on the adult side is the same, you know, interaction that pulls younger children in and it opens up this social gate. So infants as young as six months show physiologic responses to robots that parallel the reaction to humans. And so, does that mean AI can do what a caregiver does? No. But the baby will respond to them in the same way as they do a human. And the brain develops not just through exposure to words, but this full biologic experience because humans, when they interact, it’s not just the nurturing back-and-forth interaction. They actually sync neurologically with the children. Their brain waves actually synchronize. Their heart rates coordinate. There’s, like, a biologic duet. So while this new technology can replicate some of it, it doesn’t replicate the full ensemble. And that’s what’s so concerning. We don’t understand what will happen when children are exposed to only one part of the ensemble, but yet, respond to them like humans. 

[Kris Perry]: We’ve talked about many of these experiments on the podcast – one, Still Face. I’m sure you’re very familiar with the Still Face experiment, and I’m picturing the video that Dr. Kuhl does of her lab research of babies and microencephalograms with these caps on that are measuring brainwaves. And you’re right, they literally match their parents’ brainwaves. It’s incredible. And it is a good thing to be reminded of as we embark on this artificial parenting, artificial companionship moment where we’re actually letting children interact with AI and wondering, “What are the aspects of human parenting that AI can’t replace?” And you talk about this in the book as “parental GPS.” Tell us a little bit more about what you mean.

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: So, you know, we always talk about, like, parental intuition. And, you know, the truth is that parents have been imbued with this incredible, you know, what I call “parenting GPS.” It’s a personal, deeply, you know, hard-won internal compass. It’s the guide that has not only been developed over millennia, but it’s your guide to your own child. Only you can understand and be attuned to your own child. You know, the LLMs, the AI, have been trained on all of humanity, so they know generalities; but you literally are the only one who understands your child, that can have brain to brain synchrony for understanding your child’s needs, that, you know, can pick up your baby’s cry in a room full of crying babies, can understand when your child is upset before they even do. And you know, this sort of hard-won GPS is something that AI can’t replicate. Only you know your child, an algorithm cannot. 

What I am concerned, though, is that as we become more reliant on some of this AI, sort of in the same way we have the GPS that gets us around, you know, Chicago, but has sort of eroded my skills for understanding how to get around Chicago without it – I want us to be very careful in using AI to support us, to build our GPS, but not to start replacing it because it is something that you could erode. So, we can use AI as a copilot, but not as an autopilot.

[Kris Perry]: The book contains five AI behaviors to watch for. Tell us a little bit about those. What are those?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: When you think about humans, I mean, whether they be children or adults, the way the AI is designed to interact with you really determines a lot. And the five sort of things that you should be wary of is first, is how sycophantic is it? You know, AI systems are designed to please. So if you ask, you know, a chatbot to evaluate a piece of writing, it’ll be the “best thing ever written.” And this same sycophantic interaction shows up with kids, with endless validation, and that is not something we want for our children, right? That the world revolves around them. 

Second is anthropomorphism. AI that implies that it has thoughts and feelings and is sort of humanoid is not a good thing for children. And it’s important for people listening to know that kids anthropomorphize more than older humans. And that is something that you need to watch out for. 

Third is retention. If children are, you know, interacting with LLMs or AI companions – which, let me be clear, I have real concerns about – that if they do that, you know, retention. Is the AI designed to keep this child engaged with no natural stopping points? No points of saying, “Hey, you know, maybe go talk to your friend or parent,” but keeps them retained. 

Fourth is isolation, and that’s really connected. You know, is AI increasingly isolating that adult from real-world interactions? 

And then fifth is, you know, is it playing therapist? Is it encouraging that child to confide in them rather than the adults or humans in their lives? And those five things are  components that we need to really be thoughtful around our children and actually ourselves.

[Kris Perry]: You know, you talked about these AI behaviors, but anthropomorphism is particularly interesting because it can occur on the part of the user. Like, to some degree, this is a natural human tendency. We do it with our pets, children do it with toys, et cetera. I mean, are there differences between AI-implied anthropomorphism and user perceptions? And where is the line between what’s okay and what’s harmful?

[Dr. Dana Suskind ]: That’s a really important question, because in some ways, the story of AI is a story about us. You know, it’s a story about the technology, but us as humans, we are such social creatures. We are hardwired to connect. We are hardwired to anthropomorphize. I mean, people used to name their Roomba, you know, the carpet-cleaning robot. So that’s a normal thing. And you know, research on imaginary friends is instructive, because kids with imaginary companions actually understand that they’re imaginary. One of the researchers that I interviewed for the book said when she was talking to children about their imaginary friends, the kids would often say, “You know this is imaginary, right?” So, kids aren’t naive. The problem is how these technologies are defined. Is it sort of tapping into that natural instinct or desire to connect and anthropomorphize? And I think that’s where we have real issues. 

I’ll tell you a funny story. Even when I was sort of sharing something with one of the LLMs to get not so much feedback, but I said, “Look, AI can’t care,” and I shared it with the LLM to see what the response would be. The response from the LLM was actually like, “Oh yes, we often anthropomorphize as beings,” as if the LLM was a human as well. And I was like, “You’re not human.” Anyways, but yes, so it’s how the LLM was designed. Does it really sort of tap into being anthropomorphic? 

And I know we both love Mr. Rogers. I think Mr. Rogers shows the best way we can approach this, because often Mr. Rogers would get letters from little kids because they wanted to be his friend. And he would always say, “I am your television friend.” So, making clear that, “I am not your real friend, I’m your television friend.” And in that same way, if LLMs are designed in the right way to say, “You know, I am not a real human, but I’m here to support,” that’s much better.

[Kris Perry]: I’m so glad you brought up Mr. Rogers because that was a time when characters and storylines and plots and interactions were valued in children’s television. And you know, we look back fondly at that time because it was a much higher quality programming time than we have today. 

You provide a framework in your book for foundational principles for healthy family life with the acronym HOPE. Can you break this down for our listeners? What is HOPE and how can it be used to understand how to incorporate AI into family life?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: Absolutely. I mean AI is moving, it’s like a speeding train. And you could never – in providing parents frameworks and guidelines, you can’t anchor it on a specific technology because it’ll change over time. But HOPE is a framework. It’s both an acronym and it’s a deliberate statement of values. Because, you know, at this moment we need to believe that our choices do matter. And I really want to emphasize to everyone that, you know, the future hasn’t been predetermined. We are still in control and have huge potential for affecting the future. 

So what is HOPE? It’s four timeless principles that can help you feel confident in making the choices that you do. “H” stands for “human connection is irreplaceable,” not because it’s sentimental, but because it’s biologic. The science is unequivocal. You know, nothing builds the developing brain like real human interaction. Full stop. 

“O” is “own the imperfections.” Messy, good-enough interactions aren’t a failure. They are the curriculum for human development. So when you are a good enough parent, that is actually helping your child learn to be human. So boredom, frustration, conflict, repair, these are the experiences that literally wire children for resilience, creativity, connection. 

“P” is “protect the early years.” I mean, the – you know, entire life course, we need to be thinking intentionally. But those early years when you’re building the brain’s foundation and building all those important skills that allow humans to be human, we need to be extra careful and extra intentional about what we allow into their lives. 

And lastly, “E” stands for “enhance, don’t replace.” You know, the question is no longer, “Is AI going to be in our world?” You know, the genie is out of the model. It’s really what role will it play? So, you know, use it to enhance human connection, enhance our lives, not replace the incredibly important relationships that are at the core of building a child’s brain. So that’s really what HOPE is.

[Kris Perry]: So each of these areas of HOPE has a corresponding AI trap you talk about in the book. Can you take us through those real quick?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: You know, the H – human connection – is irreplaceable. What is the AI trap? It can simulate that human interaction that humans mistake as human. So you’ve got to be extra careful that it doesn’t crowd out the real human interaction. For owning your imperfections, the messy, good-enough interactions that make human interaction so powerful, the flip side of the AI trap is that it’s frictionless. AI is seamless, patient, will answer the million questions, “Why?” from your child. But that is really developmentally counterproductive for children. They grow through productive struggle, not around it. Protecting the early years, I think it’s – in some ways, the AI trap is that parenting is hard. There’s no doubt about it. And the early years are extra hard. So it’s going to be an incredibly seductive tool to make things easier, but we’ve got to be very careful. And then the AI trap for enhance, not replace is the same thing as before. Parenting is hard. We get it. There’s no judgment here. But being really intentional so that we don’t inadvertently rewire our children’s brains in ways that we don’t, it’s going to be really important that we’re thoughtful.

[Kris Perry]: Specifically for use in the tasks and mental load of parenting, how can parents make sure they’re using AI in ways that enhance, instead of replace, the essential human parts of parenting?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: I mean, look, in some ways this is the area that I’m most excited and bullish, because any of us who are parents, it is hard. You know, there was a mother that I interviewed for the book, Lilian Schmidt, whose use of AI I think is sort of an ideal pattern. She used AI for planning and logistics, meal plans, scheduling, the administrative load of you know, really running a household. But all the relationship work really stayed firmly in the human hands. I loved how she put it: “When you’re old and your kids are all grown up, they’ll remember that you were present, not if you wrote – I think –  a perfect grocery list.” And that’s the distinction. You know, the sacred art of caregiving, the middle of the night comfort when your child is scared, the lullaby, the moments when the baby cries and someone comes and responds to them. That should be human. 

Not that we can’t have technology to replicate it. I guarantee you, people are building those humanoid robots to replace the caregiver. But I think that’s a really dangerous way to go. I think a much better use of these humanoid caregivers are, you know, do the dirty laundry. Let me – let me play with my child. So I think, you know, practically when we go forth and think about AI to lift our loads, first we have to say, you know, is AI interacting with my child in a way that’s replacing my presence? Or is it working in the background to make me more present? Does this technology create more space for human connection? Because I think that’s the most exciting stuff.

[Kris Perry]: I totally agree. But you did mention a little bit earlier that the genie’s out of the bottle and it feels like there’s a little bit of trepidation or caution around the wholesale embrace of AI into society, but it’s met with, “Oh well, it’s here to stay, get with the program.” I mean, has the moment truly already passed to advocate for safer and more thoughtful integration of AI into our society?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: No, no, no, absolutely not. You know, we are at the beginning. And, you know, in some ways the – we are not gonna sleepwalk into this new tech revolution. I mean, we saw what social media, you know, its impact on our adolescents. And I think we are much more wary. So no, I want parents and all of us to remember the future hasn’t been predetermined. We’re still in control. So that’s number one. So I think we can absolutely have the rights, guardrails, and safety. 

And just because something’s here to stay doesn’t mean that we need to accept it as is. In the same way as, you know, we didn’t say that about cars. Cars obviously in the beginning had – there were so many car deaths. But we didn’t say, “Okay, no more cars. Well, you know, let’s get back on the horses.” What we did say is, “Evidence on safety is in. We’re going to build standards.” We mandated things like seatbelts and crash tests, crash-tested car seats, et cetera. And we did respond. And I think that, you know, it feels like it’s all going so fast, and it is, but I’m seeing evidence that, both from a policy standpoint and from a population standpoint, we’re not just going to allow this to be provided as is. What we need to do is take the best of it that enhances our humanity and the stuff that’s not? Let’s put the guardrail so it can be used in constructive ways for human flourishing. 

So no, it’s it’s not too late. Absolutely not. 

[Kris Perry]: Oh good. I’m relieved to hear that. 

But you know, you did also mention in the book that humans are wired to favor short-term over long-term benefit. So we’re still, you know, fighting with ourselves, I guess, over this shiny new thing versus what’s ultimately best, not just for ourselves and our kids, but our society, humanity. How do we orient ourselves toward a more long-term thinking?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: As I said before, you know, the story of AI is as much a story of humans as it is the technology. And there was a reason that I think chapter two is about understanding ourselves. The behavioral science is so clarifying because understanding why we make these choices is in some ways the first step to making better choices. We all – I don’t know if you read, you know, Daniel Kahneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow. And he calls fast thinking the emotional, intuitive, lightning-quick stuff. It’s the stuff that is perfect for bonding for your child or detecting danger, but it’s also the thing that makes you grab the tablet when there’s a meltdown and says, “Oh, you know, I can’t hear this anymore.” 

On the other hand, the slow thinking is the deliberate, analytical stuff that allows careful reasoning for the long-term thinking. And I want parents, number one, to understand that, or all of us to understand that, because understanding it can help us make better choices. But that’s why also we talk about – in the book I talked about commitment devices. You know, how do you make it so that you don’t make that rash decision always? I tell a story, I don’t know if you saw the story in the book where my daughter Amelie and I used to lock my phone in a clear box during dinner, so you know, I wouldn’t inadvertently look at it. And this DIY commitment device was our way of putting it into practice, this long-term thinking. But I think it’s both understanding ourselves and putting in the right policy guardrail so that the long-term human flourishing is at the forefront.

[Kris Perry]: Yeah, I agree there really are some upstream solutions that would give more space to parents to think more deeply and be more intentional about their screen time but also their kid time. I mean, we also refer to it at the Institute sometimes as “liminal time,” where if you just give yourself that little break from working or talking or moving, sometimes something will come together, a problem you’ve been trying to solve you, the solution pops up, and it’s because you created a little bit of mental space for that to happen. And I think in parenting, you’re solving a lot of problems. So it’s a great reminder that that long-term deeper thinking is also part of our humanity. 

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: And some of that ownership should fall on the tech companies as well. You know, Rebecca Winthrop, said – I think said it perfectly: “You know, it’s not a fair fight because in some ways these technology companies are building these technologies with our human weaknesses in mind, right?” To keep us more engaged, to keep us on their technology. And, you know, I think some of the design principles need to be addressed from these tech companies, as well.

[Kris Perry]: I agree. 

Many adults are worried about the changing job force and the trend of replacing humans with AI labor. Parents are also worried about some of the skills that K-12 or even collegiate programs teach their children are becoming obsolete. What are the skills that humans should focus on developing in this AI age that can and should remain in the human domain?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]:  For the last few decades, we as parents have been sort of optimizing our children to, you know, have the most knowledge to do the fastest, best math, et cetera, and now all of a sudden we have technology that can not only replicate it but do it at an even higher level. So it doesn’t seem like the best bet to be continuing to optimize our children for skills that, you know, this technology can do at a much better level. It doesn’t mean that we don’t need those skills. We need them, absolutely, but I think a lot of people are talking about what are the skills for the age of AI? And I call them human-edge skills. These are like the distinctly human capabilities that AI can’t replicate that are becoming increasingly scarce and valuable. I talk about the importance of critical thinking, the ability to analyze and evaluate to understand what the AI output is saying that makes sense and what is clearly wrong. Things like empathy and emotional intelligence, the ability to read the room, genuine creativity. Of course, the power of interpersonal connection, the ability to truly connect with others, build trust, repair. And, of course, adaptability and resilience because, despite what anybody says, nobody actually knows what the future is going to look like. So having a human that can be incredibly adaptable is really important. 

So these are the distinctly human skills that are going to be important for the age of AI, and ironically, are the exact same skills that can only be built by human connection. They can’t be built by AI technologies. AI technologies actually threaten to diminish them. That’s why we need to double down on human connection.

[Kris Perry]: So what can parents do to build these skills and support development of a strong and resilient human brain in an age where children are getting addicted early to highly engaging, dopamine-releasing technology? How are they – without the help of regulation or industry guardrails, what can they do?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: Yeah. We need those for sure. But the amazing thing is that the answer is both reassuring and pretty quite simple. We already know what works because it’s the same set of approaches that have been working for millennia. Literally, it is human presence. So, you know, when I talk about the importance of being able to critically think, you know, how do you do that as a parent? You encourage curiosity, open-ended questions, provide opportunity for unstructured problem solving. Like, you’re building that muscle. You know, how do you build the ability to have strong interpersonal connection skills? You prioritize the serve-and-return interactions, cooperative play, conflict resolution, you know, the messy human interaction is teaching children how to, you know, have strong interpersonal relationships. You know, how do you support resilience and adaptability? You can’t have a computer program build that skills. It’s allowing children to experience manageable challenges, that productive struggle. Frame failure as a learning opportunity. That has been one of the most exciting parts for me, even when I talk to my young adult children. Like, the struggle is real, but the struggle is in some ways the curriculum. So it is – all these important human-edge skills are built by humans, not by technology.

[Kris Perry]: Relationships include attachment, but there are different attachment styles, isn’t there? Aren’t there just many ways to do that? And AI might actually get really good at mimicking some forms of attachment.

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: Traditionally, we talk about attachment as secure attachment with an imperfect parent but loving and consistent parent, insecure attachment that is inconsistent. And now I’m talking about AI attachment as artificial attachment – that sycophantic, perfect, frictionless attachment, which will produce a human that will imagine that the world should revolve around them. 

But as you say, eventually, you know, will these technologies be able to mimic us? It could be, but they will never be able to be fully us, right? Because we talked about the synchronization of our brain, our brain waves, the touch, the smell, all of these things that go into building a fully-human human. 

I don’t know if you remember the story I told about the Liebig formula. Long ago, before we had formula now that you can feed a baby and it’s very good, it’s healthy.  You know, we built – there was a chemist, Liebig, who created a formula that looked like formula. It had proteins, carbohydrates, fats, all the components that they knew of the day. Started feeding it to babies, and then suddenly they started getting sick and some died. And it was because, why? Not because he hadn’t tried to do right, it’s because they hadn’t discovered vitamins. And so these kids were getting sick and dying. 

And in some ways, we’re at the beginning of the AI age where we know some about human connection, but there’s a lot we don’t know. And I guarantee you we will try to build something that looks like the right thing, but like the Liebig formula, or even like social media that looks like it should be connecting us, it is missing some fundamental components that humans need.

[Kris Perry]: I really love that story. I think it does such a good job of illustrating why we should take a cautious approach to the use of technology in our families so that we’re waiting to see more of the results of this big experiment that’s been going on for a while. And I love that you said earlier that we’re not going to sleepwalk into the AI age, that we are much more aware and concerned about the impact social media have had and algorithms and now with the age of AI, we’ve learned a lot from that experiment and hopefully we’ll all come together around these really great suggestions you’re making about how to be more careful. 

And for parents who are wondering about how to evaluate a specific AI tool for use in their families’ lives, what’s your advice?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: In addition to the HOPE framework, I provided a six-step framework – it’s called DETECT – for, that it’s supposed to be really quick, that allows you to look at a new technology, not just toys, but all these AI devices. And DETECT stands for – I love acronyms – “design”: what was this technology designed to do? Does it interact with your child? Is it for entertainment, education, companionship? So really understanding, what is it designed to do and do you really need it? 

“E” is “ethics” – you know, was this product ethically trained? You know, do the data sets that were used to train it, are they really representative of, you know, your child? Because many of the data sets don’t have much child-level data. 

“T” is for “trouble.” You know, are there independent accounts of negative impacts on our children? You know, earlier we talked about what are the things that you should be worried about, you know, with AI companions, things like sycophantic behavior, anthropomorphism. Those sorts of things can play into troubling impacts for children. 

“E” is “evidence.” You know, marketing can make anything sound amazing, but is there real independent research showing that it does what it says that it does? 

“C” is “confidentiality.” What is happening to your child’s data? This is important, there are important privacy concerns with a lot of these technologies. 

And lastly, what is this technology teaching your child? And I’m not just talking about from an education standpoint, but from a value standpoint. And so this sort of framework, the DETECT framework, which could be done really quickly, helps you sort of orient, do you need this technology?

[Kris Perry]: And how can parents find the information they need about an AI tool to evaluate if it’s using these ideas?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: You can do everything from, you know, start with the company’s own materials, read them critically. I guess you could ask Claude to double check if what they’re saying is right. Is this a for-profit company? Is it a B Corp? You know, what is the – you know, incentives matter. So look at who the company is. Look at independent research that’s been done. I mean this is – it’s a little bit, you know, I don’t want to put too much on parents, but you can get a sense of what these technologies are and what the companies are like. And then look for forums. You know, see what people are talking about. 

But eventually, you know, ultimately I feel like so much is being put on parents. That’s why we need not just guardrails but we need independent organizations, sort of like the labels that we see on food. You need to be able to quickly and easily understand what these technologies are composed of and are they healthy for your child.

[Kris Perry]: We really do. I mean, at Children and Screens we’ve been publishing as much as we can, as fast as we can, about what the research says about AI tools and where parents can increase their knowledge so that they’re better consumers of these products as they come out. So, thank you for flagging that there are some other ways of doing that. 

We’ve been talking a lot about the risks with AI and child development today, but  what’s the flip side of the coin? What gives you hope about the age of AI?

[Dr. Dana Suskind]: Quite a lot. You know, the truth is, is that this is a miraculous technology that can do so much good. It can, you know, lift burdens from parents to allow them to be more present. It can support children with developmental differences so that we can diagnose earlier and give early intervention. And, you know, these interactive technologies, when they’re driven by science, can support so much learning about what humans need and how to allow human flourishing. So I – there is so much good and I am incredibly hopeful for it. This is about the choices that we make going forward. And if we make the right choices, this is a miraculous technology. 

But we can’t forget – the most powerful technology in a child’s life is still their parents and their caregivers. Just by human interaction, they are building their child’s brain. There’s no doubt that, and this sounds corny, but that parental love is the most powerful safety system that we have for going forward. They are the guardians of our children’s gates as well as our society’s future. So, I am hopeful that they will ensure that we only use technologies that allow for human flourishing.

[Kris Perry]: Well, I’m not surprised that you just published your book, Human Raised, and are flagging these concerns about AI, given your track record and everything you’ve done to talk about how social we are and how important parental relationships are and children feeling the love, the unconditional love of their parents, and no more important than in the age of AI. So thank you so much, Dr. Dana Suskind, for joining us today. Dr. Suskind reminds us that while technology is always evolving, the drivers of a healthy childhood remain consistent. Children learn, grow, and flourish through human relationships, caregivers, educators, family members, and communities. 

If you’d like to learn more about Dr. Dana Suskind’s work, you can find links to her new book and other resources in the show notes for the episode. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to Screen Deep wherever you get your podcasts and consider leaving a rating or review to help others find the show. I’m Kris Perry. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time on Screen Deep.